Die Drahtzieher / Hintergruende und Methoden > Die Akte Ehgartner

Ehgartner fliegt bei Scienceblogs

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ama:
Wow, da löscht aber einer. Bei Bert Ehgartner fliegt alles durcheinander...

Schnappschuß um 16.20 Uhr:


http://www.scienceblogs.de/lob-der-krankheit/2008/11/neues-diagnoseverfahren-bestatigt-hirnschaden-bei-adhs.php

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wolfgang· 26.11.08 · 12:04 Uhr
@ Bert
wie stehts denn mit deiner "wissenschaftlichen Diskussionskultur" ?

Du hast am 21.9.2008 behauptet, dass der HPV-4 Impfstoff
hochstwahrscheinlich unwirksam ist.

Wir haben das u.a. hier diskutiert
http://www.parents.at/forum/showthread.php?t=483403

Ich habe damals deinen vollen Namen genannt- wie Du meinen dort vorher. Du
hast mich gemeldet, weil eine Namensnennung formal gegen die dortigen
Forumsregeln verstößt. Gleichzeitig hast du in deiner Signatur für dein
Buch geworben- klickt man drauf hat man deinen vollen Namen. Der Thread
wurde eröffnet von einem user, der auf deinen Profil Artikel hingewiesen
hat.

Wegen Deiner Namensnennung wurde ich dann ca 2 Wochen lang gesperrt.

Soviel zu Deinem Verständnis zum Thema Toleranz.

Offenbar magst du nicht, dass der Name Bert Ehgartner in google in
Verbindung mit sagen wir "merkwürdigen Ausserungen" von dir in Verbindung
gebracht wird. Dies damit potentielle Auftraggeber von dir die dich
googlen beispielsweise nicht draufkommen, dass du bei der AIDS-Leugner
Liste unterschrieben hast ( ca 2004 war das) - das sind die Leute, die
behaupten HIV wäre nicht die Ursache von AIDS.

http://www.rethinkingaids.com/

Die Unterschriftenliste hier-
http://www.rethinkingaids.com/quotes/rethinkers.htm

heute stehst immer noch drauf!

Weil wenn da jemand draufkommt wie du wissenschaftliche Papers in
eigenartiger Weise interpretierst, könntest ja keine Jubelartikel zum
Thema Impfungen mehr schreiben. Wie z.B. Wundermittel Impfungen im Profil
vor ca 1 Jahr.

Also nochmals zu deiner "wissenschaftlichen Diskussionskultur"- was ist
die Evidenz, dass der HPV-4 Impfstoff höchstwahrscheinlich unwirksam ist,
wie du behauptet hast?

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Catherina· 26.11.08 · 12:32 Uhr
Im Moment moderiert/löscht Herr Ehgartner anscheinend nur selber - man
fühlt sich ans Schutzzaunforum erinnert. Offensichtlich ist es zu
peinlich, wenn zu viele Besucher den Finger auf die Wunde (das allzu
freie, vom Fachwissen unbelastete, Assoziieren) legen.

Wissenschaftliche Diskussionskultur würde ja auch verlangen, dass
wenigstes so ein bisschen Evidenz vorgelegt wird. Die Basalganglien werden
bei Petrik et al jedenfalls nicht mal erwähnt und wenn die Injektion von
Aluminium was machen würde, hätten die das wohl finden müssen. Immerhin
hauen die den Mäuschen fast die Babymenge Impfstoff in den Nacken (Baby
min 3000 gr, Maus max 30 gr), aber die Basalganglien bekommen nichts ab?

Ich finde das überhaupt nicht zum Lachen, sondern nur traurig. Aber
anscheinend bedeutet "scienceblogs.de", hier darf jeder auch ohne
entsprechende Ausbildung und Verstand mal Wissenschaft machen.

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Elphaba· 26.11.08 · 12:47 Uhr
Ich hatte hier einen LInk zur Neurobiologie des ADHS eingestellt und einen
Zu einer Studie von Dr. Huss über MPH, beides hat Herr Ehgartner
gelöscht, obwohl völlig seriös!

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Joerg· 26.11.08 · 13:04 Uhr
Ja das war eine ernste Frage, ich werde das auch rausfinden wem ich da
schreiben kann und mich beschweren. Sie haben keinen Funken Wissenschaft
in ihren Knochen und haben auf Scienceblogs aber auch gar nichts verloren.

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Bert Ehgartner· 26.11.08 · 14:32 Uhr
Wie wärs denn, wenn die pressure-group von http://www.impfinformationen.de
mal zur süddeutschen spielen geht.

Dort hat eine Kollegin das Sakrileg begangen, das Manifest einer Gruppe
von Wissenschaftlern zu verbreiten, die eine Neubewertung der
Impfempfehlung der STIKO für die HPV-Impfung verlangt. Wegen zweifelhafter
Wirksamkeit.
Eine bodenlose Frechheit: Also stürzt Euch auf sie. Huschhusch
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,ra16m1/wissen/435/449165/text/

Falls Ihr ganz mutig seid, könntet Ihr ja auch in einen offenen
Diskussionsprozess mit den Wissenschaftlern eintreten, die das verfasst
haben.
Das Problem dabei ist allerdings, dass Ihr Euch dann mal mit der Datenlage
beschäftigen müsstet, anstatt bloß PR-Texte runterzuleiern.

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Bert Ehgartner· 26.11.08 · 14:35 Uhr
@Catherina
ich habe keine Ahnung, wie man hier löschen bzw. redigieren soll.
Ich kann nicht mal meinen eigenen Kommentar ändern, wenn ich ihn
abgeschickt habe.

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Elphaba· 26.11.08 · 14:38 Uhr
Dann frag ich mich wo mein Kommentar hin ist.

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Catherina· 26.11.08 · 15:31 Uhr
Wie wärs denn, wenn die pressure-group von http://www.impfinformationen.de
mal zur süddeutschen spielen geht.

Wie waer's wenn Du mal drauf eingehst, dass es keinen einzigen Hinweis in
der biomedizinischen Literatur darauf gibt, dass Aluminium oder Impfungen
sich auf Groesse und/oder Form der Basalganglien auswirken? Sowas finde
ich in der medizinischen Literatur nicht.

Bitte, wenn Du eine wissenschaftliche Diskussion willst, dann stell doch
mal eine Diskussionsbasis her auf der das moeglich ist. Freies Assoziieren
- wie schon gesagt - reicht dafuer nicht aus.
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ama:
Nun hat sich auch PZ Myers des Themas Bert Ehgartner angenommen:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/11/quackeryon_scienceblogsde.php

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Pharyngula

PZ Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris.
…and this is a pharyngula stage embryo.

......................................................................
Random Quote
If Jesus had been killed 20 years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little Electric Chairs around their necks instead of crosses

[Lenny Bruce]
......................................................................

Quackery…on Scienceblogs.de?

Category: Kooks


Posted on: November 30, 2008 8:51 PM, by PZ Myers

Look, I don't need this. It's been a rough weekend, with way too much travel for my mental and physical health, and I started off today with the Atheist Talk radio broadcast, which was good, but it was bracketed by those horrible woo-woo infomercials that always piss me off, and then I had to drive three hours to Minneapolis to send my son back to school, and then three hours back, and I haven't had time to sit down and eat yet, and the email piled up something fierce while I was away, and I still have lots of grading to do for tomorrow, and when my brain is burned out I forget how to end sentences (with a period, I suspect), and they just run on endlessly…so. There, I stopped. OK, what's this with an anti-vaccinationist on scienceblogs.de? We're not going to run him out on a rail, but it is a disappointment that the vetting process on the German side seems to have been a bit lax.

Anyway, Orac is looking for some help from our readers who are more fluent in German — help him diagnose the krankheit so he can slam the bad posts with some schmerzen und weh und so weiter.

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Comments
#1

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 30, 2008 8:57 PM

Gesundheit.
Tissue?
#2

Posted by: clinteas | November 30, 2008 8:59 PM

I dont generally like Orac,and I have to go to work,but will have a look at it when I get home.
#3

Posted by: Sastra | November 30, 2008 9:15 PM

Someone recently created a new term for folks like this -- pseudoskeptics. They pretend to be mavericks challenging the scientific orthodoxy through better science. They're "skeptics" asking reasonable questions.

But, if you examine their claims and evidence, you see that they're not following scientific procedures at all, nor are they thinking critically. They're using sloppy research, deceptive arguments, logical fallacies, shaky rationalizations, cherry picking, and misinformation. And, unlike genuine skeptics, there is nothing which will make them change their minds.

On his blog, Orac says that it looks like there's reasonable stuff mixed in with the unreasonable. Again, that's common. Of course, if the sciencebloggers object to having a pseudoskeptic on scienceblogs, expect cries of suppression and persecution.

(and pshaw -- who could not love Orac?)
#4

Posted by: ERV | November 30, 2008 9:24 PM
We're not going to run him out on a rail...
*frown* Wait, what? Maaaaaan......
#5

Posted by: kryth | November 30, 2008 9:27 PM

No tar?
No feathers?
No fun...

ama:
#6

Posted by: Skwee | November 30, 2008 9:34 PM

Germany has this guy, we have Nisbet. Such is the world.
#7

Posted by: Chris | November 30, 2008 9:41 PM

Um, I think he should be run out on a rail. He's a quack. And belief in medical quackery is almost as common in Germany as belief in sky wizards is over here. It would be like giving a DI drone a blog on scienceblogs.com.
#8

Posted by: Janothar | November 30, 2008 9:41 PM

Can we get this guy and Nisbet together and let them form their own blog collective? Then we don't have to deal with either, and they can go play by themselves in a corner of the internet where none of us live.
#9

Posted by: catta | November 30, 2008 10:06 PM

The good news is that the other German sciencebloggers are outraged, too. The bad news is that this guy also is an HIV/AIDS denialist and believes Homosexuality is curable.
I'll do my best to help and translate... and I'll certainly write a polite but angry letter to scienceblogs.de -- I want to continue recommending the site. :/
#10

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | November 30, 2008 11:10 PM

Run him out on a rail... gun.

("Mop and bucket?" "Garden hose.")
#11

Posted by: Jadehawk | December 1, 2008 12:29 AM

was working on a translation, got a headache...

but basically the guy he interviews claims that inactivated vaccinations cause something called "Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis", and that he thinks that caused the death of a handful of people who have recently died shortly after getting vaccinated with the HPV-vaccine, and that the german and austrian governments are doing the best to absolve the vaccine from this, that the placebo used in tests of the HPV-vaccine was designed to mask all side effects of the vaccine, and that there's a massive cover-up
#12

Posted by: Jadehawk | December 1, 2008 1:20 AM

"Aluminum Must be Removed from Vaccines!"

A Manifesto, in which 13 scientist publicly demand a revision of the recommendation for the HPV-vaccine, is causing a stir. But it's not only the efficacy of the vaccine that's in question; it's its safety, too. I spoke about this at the beginning of the year with the vaccine expert from Wiesbaden, Klaus Hartmann:

E.: During the pre-approval studies for the HPV-vaccine, only relatively few side effects were found. There were barely any differences to the placebo-group.

H.: That was because of the choice of placebo. The typical, neutral water-solution was not used. Instead, the mix was one of all ingredients of the HPV-vaccine, except for the HPV-antigens. Therefore, the placebo contained among other things the Aluminum-salts which are proven to be problematic.

E.:What were the consequences?

H.: The HPV-vaccine was tested against a substance that can cause the same side effects. This is a very questionable method, and I'm puzzled as to why the Ethics Commission permitted it. The Aluminum containing adjuvants have recently become a subject for discussion. Until now, their safety has been deduced retrospectively, since Millions of doses have been used for vaccination, and apparently nothing happened. That is not correct though. It is known that these additives cause autoimmune reactions in people who are susceptible. This has been confirmed in animal tests. Additionally, they can damage the nervous system, because Aluminum hydroxide has the potential to be a neurotoxin.

E.: In what timerange after the vaccination does this happen?

H.: This can happen up to five weeks after the vaccination. We have two mechanisms here: For one, the aluminum-salts can trigger autoimmune reactions, and secondly there are the direct damaging effects on the nerve cells. You do not register those, if you only take cases of up to two weeks into account. This toxic effect was recently confirmed to take place in human cells as well, even in doses like those used in vaccines.

E.: Why haven't those substances been replaced already?

H.: The manufacturers know that the aluminum needs to be removed, and they're all working on it eagerly. This will not take long, the same way ithat it happened to the mercury containing preservatives used in childhood vaccinations, which first became a issue for debate, and was then replaced.

E.: Is the choice of placebo meant to hide the side effects of the HPV-vaccine?

H.: Certainly. When the test group shows the same autoimmune reactions, they are leveled out and no one notices them.

E.: The government agency responsible for collecting reports of side effects says that there are no known side effects to the HPV-vaccine.

H.: That's pure cover-up tactics. Once a vaccine is approved, these feedbacks are the only control. But here, only the immediate reactions -if any- are reported. The weaknesses of the report-gathering system are known, but aren't even meant to be improved upon. This is a true cover-up tactic. The government and the manufacturers are in agreement, and no money is spent. True, long-term data about safety don't even exist. As long as this isn't questioned and checked, the problem will continue to exist. It will continue to be said, with full certainty, that there are no problems, even though we can't know that with what's currently possible.

E.: But now, the two deaths in Germany and Austria have caused furore.

H.:Something like that can't just be ignored. So now there is a great effort to absolve the vaccine of this. On the other side, no one is being tasked with seriously test a possible connection to the vaccination. There is an unbelievable distortion. Sensible research about this subject finds absolutely no support.

E.:You have informed yourself about the Austrian cases, as well. Is there a connection to the HPV-vaccine?

H.: The deceased young woman already had problems before her sudden death. She had developed a noticeable photophobia, had headaches and persistent intestinal symptoms. Those are typical symptoms of (Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis). If this isn't looked for specifically during an autopsy, you can no longer find it. After all, an ADEM-focus is not a tumor or a change in tissue, which can be detected even days later. This is a fleeting inflammatory event. If this happens in the Nodus Vitalis, you could stop breathing (suffer an attack of apnea?) because of an ADEM-focus. And you don't find the cause anymore, when this is investigated only after days or weeks.

E.: There was the argument that with ADEM, the student would have had massive problems earlier, and would in this case not have been able to go away.

H.:No, that's nonsense. It always depends on where the nerve damage happens. There are many different symptoms. The patients could suddenly develop a psychosis, act noticeable. There is no uniform picture. Any kind of neurological, cerebral distinctive feature could be theoretically caused by an ADEM. In most cases it won't be recognized as ADEM, and luckily it's also the case that in most cases it happens reversibly. It is only rarely life threatening, and then it can unfortunately end like with the young Austrian woman.

E.: Did you find ADEM in the cases you've examined?

H.: In my assesment-clinic, that is the most common diagnosis with cases of vaccination-damage. It's the biggest problem with inactivated vaccines.

E.: How many assessments do you do per year?

H.: I do about 60-70 per year, which are commissioned by the civil courts.

E.: How high is the estimated number of unknown cases of undesired effects of vaccines in passive reporting systems like that of Germany or Austria?

H.: A German study tested this for side-effects of drugs and came to a rate of reported cases of 5%-10%. With vaccines it would likely be looking worse, because doctors are hardly informed about the side effects of vaccinations, and also because the inhibition treshold to report it is higher. With antilipidemics or antibiotics this is taken for granted more, because there is already a certain sketpicism. With vaccinations, the doctors turn to their pharma-consultant, where they are pre-emptively appeased.

E.: Shouldn't the reports go directly to the agencies?

H.: Since 2001, there is a legal obligation to report. This has been barely noted by the doctors. There is also no education about it.

E.: In Austria, the word from the vaccine experts was that after three weeks, a side effect from a vaccination was pretty much impossible.

H.: Such statements came even from the longstanding SITKO (Permanent Vaccine Commission at the Robert Koch Institute) chairman Heinz-Joseph Schmitt. That is scientifically complete nonsense. Just like the Austrian positions that side effects only happen immediately or not at all. Complete rubbish.

E.: Where then do those vaccine experts take their knowledge of the subject from?

H.: The term "vaccine-expert" is not protected. Everybody can call themselves that. In addition, these vaccine-experts are with 100% likelihood on some industry-payroll. Either directly or over research-funds at university institutions. Those are all people who are paid to say that. Our SITKO-chairman Schmitt has after all recently switched officially into the industry to the vaccine-manufacturer Novaris-Behring. And over there, he probably still tells the same stories.

The physician from Wiesbaden, Klaus Hartman, 48, was for 10 years with the German Paul Ehrlich Institute, responsible for the scientific assessment of undesirable effects of vaccinations. Today, he is one of the most employed cours assessor for possible vaccination-damages.
#13

Posted by: Jadehawk | December 1, 2008 1:25 AM

uh, sorry for the unedited mess, I accidentally hit "post" while editing

ama:
#14

Posted by: Shaden Freud | December 1, 2008 2:00 AM

"Quackery? On my blog network?"

It's more likely than you think.
#15

Posted by: RickrOll | December 1, 2008 3:12 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/science/11gene.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1

I'm a little troubled by this article, to say the least. I feel it falls into this discussion, at least of psuedoscience, thought it deals with genetics.
#16

Posted by: JohnS | December 1, 2008 3:52 AM

I hope you'll forgive this mostly-off-topic question: Why does scienceblogs have that 'Top Five Most German" teaser over at the right column on English-language blogs? I often enjoy using the links that appear in that space to travel to Orac or Laden or Her Magnificence, Dr. Isis. But when the German menu appears there, I have to reload the browser - sometimes several times - in order to get to something I can use. I know - in a world of huge problems, this is tiny. But still, wouldn't a separate link be more appropriate?

Thanks, JohnS
#17

Posted by: perceval | December 1, 2008 4:06 AM

Zis is a conspirasi, Herr John @16! Seriously, this guy may well be worse than Nisbet. At least Nisbet is not actively peddling anti science - it looks like the German guy relies a lot on "experts" and less on actual medical knowledge.

Have already provided Orac with a translation of one of his posts.
#18

Posted by: Kaela Mensha Khaine | December 1, 2008 4:35 AM

Comments on the conspirationists articel look very well ... they tear him apart. Funny, how a little insult looks so much more aggressive and arrogant in german - perhaps this is why your language is that liked all over the world.

The (rather religious) ad hominem argument is far more disrespected here. So there is more pseudoscience, pseudoscepticism and "deep-probing investigations into the matter, to protect the people and reveal the truth about [set in conspiration."
#19

Posted by: Valhar2000 | December 1, 2008 6:42 AM

Well, yeah, freedom of speech and plurality of voices and all that... but having crankery on Scienceblogs drastically reduces the quality of the whole shebang.
#20

Posted by: Joerg | December 1, 2008 8:17 AM

He has a large article today claiming to present proof, but I won't read it all, because honestly I have made up my mind that there is not a single scientific bone in this guy, so why should I bother...I have repeatedly demanded his removal from ScienceBlogs.

http://www.scienceblogs.de/lob-der-krankheit/2008/12/aluminium-die-evidenz.php
#21

Posted by: clinteas | December 1, 2008 8:56 AM

Ok,I have had a look at this guy.
The crowd at Oracs place is in full in witch-burning mode unfortunately,while using babelfish etc to make their judgments.

I really cant be bothered to write too much about this,there is no sensation,no scandal,no issue here,I might just copy and paste what I put onto Orac's blog:

//Guys,he's harmless.Get a life already.

He seems to be just as critical towards big pharma as he is critical of vaccine additives,for which he cites studies and reasonable journal articles.
Nothing about vaccines=autism here,he's not Jenny McCarthy,move on.

Objectivity,you should try it sometime.//
#22

Posted by: David Marjanovi&#263;, OM | December 1, 2008 9:55 AM

clinteas, Ehgartner was looking for a measles party for his daughter (fortunately didn't find any), has signed an HIV-AIDS denialist manifesto, constantly mentions his book (same title as his blog: "Praise to illness") which, as he explains himself, is about "why it's healthy to be ill once in a while", says measles are "harmless in good care", and so on. Knowingly or not, he is spreading disinformation. I'm with ERV.

And let's not forget the guy who runs Medlog, another de.SciBling, who had a post saying that insanely high doses of elementary mercury and lead are harmless -- healthy in fact -- if they're part of a magic Ayurveda powder.
#23

Posted by: clinteas | December 1, 2008 10:20 AM

David M,

being german I fondly remember measles parties,my parents used to tell me about them,the thought back then was to get everyone infected,and get it over and done with.The MMR vaccine didnt come out until the early 70s I think.

Measles are mostly harmless,you tend to run into the complications more with older age,therefore good to get them earlier.Nowadays a non-issue because of the vaccine.

I cant find any reference to the anti-HIV thing,but if you say he signed it,Im sure he did.
Im not saying the guy is the pride of german science journalism here,but the hystery is unfounded.
#24

Posted by: clinteas | December 1, 2008 10:23 AM

Hysteria,even....
#25

Posted by: David Marjanovi&#263;, OM | December 1, 2008 11:39 AM
Measles are mostly harmless

Tens to hundreds of people used to die of it every year, and lifelong damage was also common. Are you sure you're old enough to remember...?
I cant find any reference to the anti-HIV thing

In the comments to the very blog post this post links to.

In case you're interested, I'm Austrian.
#26

Posted by: ama | December 1, 2008 11:41 AM

Hi, folks,
actually Bert Ehgartner is an Austrian. We know him for some years, at least since 2001.

During this time he spread wrong and false news about viruses and other medical topics.

During this time he attacked people AD HOMINEM.

He is responsible for the outrageous attacks against (in chronological order)
- Renate Ratlos (netizen for children's rights)
- ama (net ghost)
- Ralf Behrmann, a pediatrician (Frankfurt, Germany
- Wolfgang Maurer, a vaccination expert (Vienna, Austria)
and many others I forgot the names of.

Mark it: It is not a personal affair! The key is defamation of science in general and of scientific medicine in special. There is no excuse for knowingly indoctrinating with false information which can lead to the death of children. And THIS is exactly what Ehgartner does.

Ehgartner has no place in journalism.

ama
http://www.hall-of-fame.me
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Sildenafil:
Erster!
https://twitter.com/Scienceblogs/status/1034440130
;-)

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